[Auscope-geosciml] CGI Value abomination [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

Laxton, John L jll at bgs.ac.uk
Wed Sep 2 05:38:35 EDT 2009

The snag with limiting users to the number of formats they can use is that the chosen format may not match the user's database. We recently hit this with unitThickness defined as CGI_Numeric. Fair enough you might think but in our database unit thickness is a string with comments like 'c23m in Grantham area'. The unfortunate reality is that in lots of cases different data providers hold the same property in different formats. We could remodel them as distinct properties for different formats (Ollie's option (b)) but this is only going to be worthwhile where we wish to query against the property. In most cases all we wish to do is deliver a property value and I'm not convinced it matters if the way BGS delivers something like ParticleGeometryDescription.sorting is different from the way AZGS does - we need to be realistic about the level of interoperability needed. Particular services can always specify more restrictive requirements if needed as OneGeology-Europe is doing.


-----Original Message-----
From: auscope-geosciml-bounces at lists.arcs.org.au [mailto:auscope-geosciml-bounces at lists.arcs.org.au] On Behalf Of Oliver.Raymond at ga.gov.au
Sent: 02 September 2009 05:49
To: Rob.Atkinson at csiro.au; auscope-geosciml at lists.arcs.org.au
Subject: Re: [Auscope-geosciml] CGI Value abomination [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

I agree with Simon's sentiments.  But Rob's comments have me confused.  I can't see how making CGI_Value a specialisation of another class is going to make the model more interoperable.  It still leaves users able to deliver some attribute values as either term values, number values or ranges.

The aim here is to:

a) limit users in the number of formats they can use to deliver attribute values, and

b) redefine some model elements (eg: Age) so that they explicitly state, for example, "this attribute is for a numerical Age only" or "this attribute is for a term Age only", rather than the existing "this attribute can be a numeric Age, or a term Age, or a range of numeric and term Ages".


Ollie Raymond
National Advice,  Maps and Standards Project
Geoscience Australia

Address: GPO Box 378, Canberra, ACT, 2601, Australia | ABN: 80 091 799 039
Ph: (02) 62499575 | Fax: (02) 62499992 | Email: Oliver.Raymond at ga.gov.au
Web:  http://www.ga.gov.au/minerals/research/national/nat_maps/nat_geol_maps.jsp
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-----Original Message-----
From: Rob.Atkinson at csiro.au [mailto:Rob.Atkinson at csiro.au]
Sent: Wednesday, 2 September 2009 2:28 PM
To: auscope-geosciml at lists.arcs.org.au
Cc: auscope-geosciml-bounces at lists.arcs.org.au; Raymond Oliver
Subject: RE: [Auscope-geosciml] CGI Value abomination

Next week I'll be visiting Simon, and will be happy to put this on the agenda to explore and suggest a straw man solution.

If this is not suitable timing, I'll try to mock somethign up in the meantime.

but basically - you leave the CGI_term and TermValue classes, but you redefine them as specialisations of the base class we decide to use - I need to understand where ISO19146 is at, but it seems to be exactly what we would need.

CGI_term may have some additional semantics or properties, but this should be able to be handled.


From: auscope-geosciml-bounces at lists.arcs.org.au [auscope-geosciml-bounces at lists.arcs.org.au] On Behalf Of Bruce.Simons at dpi.vic.gov.au [Bruce.Simons at dpi.vic.gov.au]
Sent: Wednesday, 2 September 2009 2:21 PM
To: auscope-geosciml at lists.arcs.org.au
Cc: auscope-geosciml at lists.arcs.org.au; auscope-geosciml-bounces at lists.arcs.org.au; Oliver.Raymond at ga.gov.au
Subject: Re: [Auscope-geosciml] CGI Value abomination

I like Rob's suggestion - at least the bit I understand - "This way no client models actually need to change. The implementation of CGI_Value using the old model is now an implementation choice, that can be deprecated. "

What does the rest mean? ie how do we actually do it?


GeoScience Victoria
Department of Primary Industries
Melbourne, Victoria
Ph: +61-3-9658 4502
Fax: +61-3-9658 4555
Mobile: +61 429 177155

<Rob.Atkinson at csiro.au>
Sent by: auscope-geosciml-bounces at lists.arcs.org.au

02/09/2009 08:22 AM
Please respond to
auscope-geosciml at lists.arcs.org.au

        <auscope-geosciml at lists.arcs.org.au>, <Oliver.Raymond at ga.gov.au>

        Re: [Auscope-geosciml] CGI Value abomination

would it be possible to recast CGI_Value as a facade to an implementation as a specialisation of ISO19146, and have a canonical implementation of ISO19146 using a pre-defined set of service interfaces (SKOS maybe + something with more ontological power?)

This way no client models actually need to change. The implementation of CGI_Value using the old model is now an implementation choice, that can be deprecated. New systems (with suitable deployment profiles) could demand the canonical implementation.

Rob Atkinson
Team Leader, Interoperable Systems
CSIRO Land & Water
Ph (mobile) +61 419 202 973

From: auscope-geosciml-bounces at lists.arcs.org.au [mailto:auscope-geosciml-bounces at lists.arcs.org.au] On Behalf Of Simon Cox
Sent: Tuesday, 1 September 2009 5:10 PM
To: Oliver.Raymond at ga.gov.au
Cc: auscope-geosciml at lists.arcs.org.au
Subject: [Auscope-geosciml] CGI Value abomination

Ollie, others:

I have been grumbling about this for a while, and hope that it can be addressed in the upcoming meeting in Quebec.

Way too many of the class attributes in GeoSciML use CGI_Value and its variants.

I am fully aware of the history of when CGI_Value it was created (Ottawa, 2005) and its value (it allowed us to move forward on the bigger issues).
It also allowed a lazy UML design process, where for most atttributes the type was set following a logic of just 'we can't really think about this now but it'll be some kind of word/number'.

Now I think it is time to set it aside and move on.

My fundamental objections to the almost ubiquitous use of CGI_Value are
(i) it is hard to implement - it relies on XML Schema substitution groups
(ii) it is not compatible with any other domain schema
(iii) it allows data providers to be 'lazy' and create instances that are not interoperable on arrival
(iv) it forces decisions required for data-fusion over to the client - this is fundamentally what a standard encoding is supposed to avoid!
(v) it privileges a marginal GeoSciML use-case (transmission of field data) at the expense of the dominant use-case (exchange of quality-controlled archival data).

Most of the time, the client will refer to 'standard definitions' provided in the GeoSciML concept schemes to translate the values provided into standard forms anyway, so why not get the provider to do that rather than the client

It is the job of the GeoSciML design task group to actually make some choices, fix the type of the basic class attributes, and then require that service providers conform - make them make the choice about the 'best' value for an attribute, don't shirk the job and push it back to the client.

Almost all CGI_Value should be replaced by
(a) ScopedName
(b) Measure
with just a few being
(c) Range (new type)


Simon Cox

European Commission, Joint Research Centre
Institute for Environment and Sustainability
Spatial Data Infrastructures Unit, TP 262
Via E. Fermi, 2749, I-21027 Ispra (VA), Italy
Tel: +39 0332 78 3652
Fax: +39 0332 78 6325
mailto:simon.cox at jrc.ec.europa.eu

SDI Unit: http://sdi.jrc.ec.europa.eu/
IES Institute: http://ies.jrc.ec.europa.eu/
JRC: http://www.jrc.ec.europa.eu/

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