[Auscope-geosciml] Event type vocabulary? what is it [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

Stephen M Richard steve.richard at azgs.az.gov
Mon Mar 22 12:41:49 EDT 2010


Having a preferredAge boolean would be a convenience for some, but to be 
useful, it would probably need to be required at least at the level of 
an application profile. If non-expert (or lazy) users come to depend on 
its presence to use for age assignments, it will break things if its not 
there. From the data provider point of view, it might then add a little 
extra work figuring out how to flag one event in each history as 
'preferred'. The purpose of a WFS is not map portrayal, but data 
delivery, so on balance, I think preferredAge is superfluous. Each 
provider can provide a WMS that displays geologic units based on their 
idea of preferred age. As far as a WFS filter criteria, people are more 
likely to get what they expect if they have to decide what they mean by 
'preferredAge' when they compose the query.

Are we in agreement that EventType does not serve any purpose that is 
not already accounted for by eventProcess?

steve

On 3/21/2010 4:55 PM, Oliver.Raymond at ga.gov.au wrote:
>
> Hi Bruce, John et al,
>
> / /
>
> /> ...  is not to provide additional information, just opinion....../
>
> How the data is delivered is often a matter of opinion.  One 
> organisation may choose to deliver a simple WFS for one purpose, while 
> another may chose to deliver a highly complex and detailed WFS for a 
> different purpose.  I see John’s request as just another use case. 
>  It’s not wrong, it’s just wanting to use the data for a different 
> purpose (ie, map display for a basic ‘normal’ geological map)
>
> / /
>
> /> Clients like OneGeology should provide a view of 'age' based on 
> their criteria (presumably deposition, intrusion, extrusion, peak 
> meatamorphism, but since it uses 'preferredAge' I've no certainty what 
> this means)...../
>
> But I do have certainty of what it means, because the eventProcess 
> attribute tells me what the event is. And if we write very specific 
> scope notes for preferredAge, we can be certain how preferredAge is to 
> be used (John will need to provide very, very specific scope notes 
> here to satisfy Bruce I think!).
>
> /> ...Other portals may choose a different criteria (eg last 
> deformation age). Users who access the data directly can write their 
> own filters to meet their purpose..../
>
> By having both eventProcess and preferredAge attributes on 
> GeologicEvent, users can perform either of Bruce’s and John’s use 
> cases.  It doesn’t have to be one or the other.
>
> One world in harmony.... :)
>

Kumbaya, kumbaya... sing it!

> Cheers,
>
> Ollie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* auscope-geosciml-bounces at lists.arcs.org.au 
> [mailto:auscope-geosciml-bounces at lists.arcs.org.au] *On Behalf Of 
> *Bruce.Simons at dpi.vic.gov.au
> *Sent:* Monday, 22 March 2010 10:24 AM
> *To:* auscope-geosciml at lists.arcs.org.au
> *Subject:* Re: [Auscope-geosciml] Event type vocabulary? what is it 
> [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
>
>
> As you would expect I object!
>
> >In spite of potential ambiguities age is something that is recorded on 
> pretty much all geological maps.
> Yes, but there is usually additional information, either in the legend 
> (eg depositional environment) or accompanying explanatory notes, to 
> indicate what this age means.
>
> > are the ones that we (as the experts in the geological survey) 
> consider represent the age of the GeologicUnit ... For 
> interoperability all information should be in the data, not embedded 
> in queries.
> To specify that this is a 'preferredAge' of someone in the survey 
> without saying why this age is preferred or what the age represents is 
> not to provide additional information, just opinion.
>
> >I don't think telling users to work it out for themselves is a 
> sufficient response (we are meant to be the experts), or telling them 
> they can only get this information if the service is accessed through 
> a portal controlled by us with queries constructed by us.
> Its not about telling users to work it out for themselves, its about 
> allowing users and clients to use the data for the purposes they 
> require and providing sufficient information so they can. Clients like 
> OneGeology should provide a view of 'age' based on their criteria 
> (presumably deposition, intrusion, extrusion, peak meatamorphism, but 
> since it uses 'preferredAge' I've no certainty what this means). Other 
> portals may choose a different criteria (eg last deformation age). 
> Users who access the data directly can write their own filters to meet 
> their purpose.
>
> I repeat:
> "The preferredAge property was deprecated because it has no real 
> meaning, it is one age from the rocks geologicHistory, but with no 
> capacity to say why this is the one chosen."
>
> Cheers
> Bruce
>
> GeoScience Victoria
> AuScope Grid
> Australian Spatial Research Data Commons
>
> Ph: +61-3-9658 4502
> Fax: +61-3-9658 4555
> Mobile: +61 429 177155
>
> *<Oliver.Raymond at ga.gov.au>*
> Sent by: auscope-geosciml-bounces at lists.arcs.org.au
>
> 22/03/2010 09:56 AM
>
> Please respond to
> auscope-geosciml at lists.arcs.org.au
>
> 	
>
> To
>
> 	
>
> <auscope-geosciml at lists.arcs.org.au>
>
> cc
>
> 	
>
> Subject
>
> 	
>
> Re: [Auscope-geosciml] Event type vocabulary? what is it 
> [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
>
> 	
>
>
>
>
> How’s this for a compromise option.....
>
> If we add an attribute to GeologicEvent called “preferred” (type = 
> Boolean, 1..1, nillable), would that satisfy John’s needs without 
> having to create a whole new event element?  Then it would be easy to 
> identify which of a series of GeologicEvents is the one intended to 
> map display.
>
> Opinions please?
>
> Cheers,
> Ollie
>
> /----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ 
>
> /Ollie Raymond/
> */ /*
> */National Advice, Maps and Standards Project/*
> /Geoscience Australia/
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> */GeoSciML Design Group/*
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> --- This message was created with 100% recycled electrons ---
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>
> -----Original Message-----*
> From:* auscope-geosciml-bounces at lists.arcs.org.au 
> [mailto:auscope-geosciml-bounces at lists.arcs.org.au] *On Behalf Of 
> *Laxton, John L*
> Sent:* Friday, 19 March 2010 11:04 PM*
> To:* auscope-geosciml at lists.arcs.org.au*
> Subject:* Re: [Auscope-geosciml] Event type vocabulary? what is it
>
> Bruce,
>
> In spite of potential ambiguities age is something that is recorded on 
> pretty much all geological maps. In GeoSciML age comes with 
> eventProcess and eventEnvironment which gives more information on what 
> the preferredAge represents than has been provided on maps in the 
> past, but maybe we do need to be able to state the reason for 
> selecting an age more specifically. In OneGeology-Europe we are 
> providing a preferredAge for all GeologicUnits as a term range. For 
> many GeologicUnits we will also provide a full geologicHistory. I am 
> not clear how we could do this when preferredAge has been deprecated 
> as there is no way we can say which GeologicEvent(s) in the 
> geologicHistory are the ones that we (as the experts in the geological 
> survey) consider represent the age of the GeologicUnit. I don't think 
> telling users to work it out for themselves is a sufficient response 
> (we are meant to be the experts), or telling them they can only get 
> this information if the service is accessed through a portal 
> controlled by us with queries constructed by us. For interoperability 
> all information should be in the data, not embedded in queries.
>
> What will happen I suspect is that people will simply use 
> geologicHistory as a preferredAge (ie with just one GeologicEvent), 
> but that is then throwing away the ability to record a proper 
> geologicHistory.
>
> John
>
>
> *From:* auscope-geosciml-bounces at lists.arcs.org.au 
> [mailto:auscope-geosciml-bounces at lists.arcs.org.au] *On Behalf Of 
> *Bruce.Simons at dpi.vic.gov.au*
> Sent:* 18 March 2010 22:24*
> To:* auscope-geosciml at lists.arcs.org.au*
> Cc:* auscope-geosciml at lists.arcs.org.au; 
> auscope-geosciml-bounces at lists.arcs.org.au*
> Subject:* Re: [Auscope-geosciml] Event type vocabulary? what is it
>
>
> John,
> The Question "How old is the rock? is meaningless.  It is dependent on 
> the context. Within traditional paper maps we provide that context by 
> the 'type' of geological map and the legend. GSV has different maps 
> where the rocks that make up the Omeo Metamorphic Complex are 
> variously shown as Ordovician (age of deposition), Silurian (age of 
> regional metamorphism), Devonian (age of contact metamorphism) and 
> Tertiary (sic - age of recent uplift).  Which of these represent an 
> age of the rock depends on the end users requirements.
>
> Presumably a client like the OneGeology portal will want to display an 
> "age" map which represents depositional or intrusive age. The 
> eventProcess/eventAge couplet allows the client to derive this, or if 
> a WMS, derive a legend explaining what age means.
>
> The preferredAge property was deprecated because it has no real 
> meaning, it is one age from the rocks geologicHistory, but with no 
> capacity to say why this is the one chosen.
>
> Cheers
> Bruce
>
> GeoScience Victoria
> AuScope Grid
> Australian Spatial Research Data Commons
>
> Ph: +61-3-9658 4502
> Fax: +61-3-9658 4555
> Mobile: +61 429 177155
>
> *"Laxton, John L" <jll at bgs.ac.uk>*
> Sent by: auscope-geosciml-bounces at lists.arcs.org.au
>
> 19/03/2010 03:42 AM
>
> Please respond to
> auscope-geosciml at lists.arcs.org.au
>
> 	
>
> To
>
> 	
>
> "steve.richard at azgs.az.gov" <steve.richard at azgs.az.gov>
>
> cc
>
> 	
>
> "auscope-geosciml at lists.arcs.org.au" <auscope-geosciml at lists.arcs.org.au>
>
> Subject
>
> 	
>
> Re: [Auscope-geosciml] Event type vocabulary? what is it
>
>
> 	
>
>
>
>
>
> Steve,
>
> At present data providers generally give a GeologicUnit an age and I 
> would be wary about moving from this to telling users 'these are the 
> ages of all the things that have happened to the rock, pick which age 
> you want'. The latter approach implies that all users wanting the age 
> of a rock will be aware of what the most significant event in the 
> geologicHistory is which I doubt is always the case. We have to assume 
> that our data is not just going to be accessed through clients under 
> our control and with queries created by us.
>
> Maybe asking how old a rock is isn't as simple a question as it 
> sounds, but it is one we have traditionally answered and I think we 
> need to continue to do so.
>
> John
> *
> From:* Stephen M Richard [mailto:steve.richard at azgs.az.gov] *
> Sent:* 18 March 2010 16:16*
> To:* Laxton, John L*
> Cc:* auscope-geosciml at lists.arcs.org.au*
> Subject:* Re: [Auscope-geosciml] Event type vocabulary? what is it
>
> John--I think the logic is that one would have to pose the 'how old is 
> the rock' question by specifying the process of interest that defines 
> what 'how old' means. For sedimentary and igneous rocks, the answer is 
> generally simple-- deposition, intrusion, or eruption, for altered or 
> metamorphic rocks (composite genesis), the answer could be cooling, 
> peak metamorphism, or protolith deposition, intrusion, or eruption.
>
> This issues is a good example of use of the interchange format for 
> information encoding vs. a geologist-friendly query language. Same 
> issue that was the basis for the recent geologic unit morphology 
> discussion. I think the stored query approach with a 'common 
> queryable' element (like CSW common queryables) for 'preferred age' is 
> a better solution to the problem, because preferred age depends on the 
> user in some cases (design decision is are there enough of these cases 
> to allow flexibility?).
>
> steve
>
> On 3/18/2010 8:56 AM, Laxton, John L wrote:
> Steve,
>
> I think we have got confused somewhere here!
>
> The v2 preferredAge was there to answer the question 'How old is the 
> rock?'. After deprecating preferredAge in order to answer the same 
> question there needs to be a way of flagging one of the events in the 
> geologicHistory as being the one that is deemed to represent the age 
> of the rock. I don't see how this can be achieved with a query on 
> eventProcess and numericAgeDate so I don't see how Action 15 from 
> Quebec follows from the decision to deprecate preferredAge. That said 
> I don't see how a query on eventType would either. I think eventType 
> may have been introduced simply to follow the typing pattern used 
> elsewhere (eg faultType), but faultType was introduced because of the 
> complexity of querying for commonly used concepts such as 'reverse 
> fault' without such a property. I'm not sure there is a similar use 
> case for eventType, and as you say there is a danger of confusion with 
> eventProcess and eventEnvironment. I think the requirement I 
> identified for the ability to relate local events to larger scale 
> events such as orogenies is best met through the use of  a classifier.
>
> So:
>
> 1. I'm unclear of the requirement for eventType and unless there is a 
> clear use case for it it might be best dropped
>
> 2. I'm unclear how we can replicate the preferredAge concept with 
> geologicHistory
>
> John
> *
> From:* auscope-geosciml-bounces at lists.arcs.org.au 
> <mailto:auscope-geosciml-bounces at lists.arcs.org.au> 
> [mailto:auscope-geosciml-bounces at lists.arcs.org.au] *On Behalf Of 
> *Stephen M Richard*
> Sent:* 17 March 2010 17:46*
> To:* auscope-geosciml at lists.arcs.org.au 
> <mailto:auscope-geosciml at lists.arcs.org.au>*
> Subject:* Re: [Auscope-geosciml] Event type vocabulary? what is it
>
> Yikes-- We added Classifier on event as well. That would be the 
> logical place to have association of an event with a specific geologic 
> event that might be reused (like Hercynian Orogeny, K-T boundary 
> impact) and have its own GeologicEvent prototype description.
> So what use does that leave for EventType. The only one I can see that 
> doesn't create confusion with eventProcess -  eventEnvironment is to 
> use it in the sense of GeologicUnitType as a category that specifies 
> variations in the content model/intention of the actual GeologicEvent 
> element ('type' in the sense of data type). Examples --extended event 
> (orogeny), instantaneous event (bolide impact, volcanic eruption). 
> Maybe some coherent abstraction of the eventProcess vocabulary could 
> be made to categorize events that have different kinds of prototype 
> descriptions, but the danger is that if the eventTypes are just the 
> broader categories from the eventProcess vocabulary, then its unclear 
> which property to filter for those categories -- eventProcess or 
> eventType.
>
> steve
>
> On 3/17/2010 9:58 AM, Stephen M Richard wrote:
>
> EventType property on GeologicEvent feature scope notes currently 
> read: term 'to broadly categorise the type of event (e.g. 
> depositional, tectonic, biological, metallogenic)'. Figuring out what 
> should be in the EventType vocabulary opens a host of questions -- how 
> to categorize events?, what are the use cases?. Kinds of event would 
> be defined by process and environment by my reckoning, so it would 
> appear that EventType would act as a short cut for some combination of 
> eventEnvironment and eventProcess.
>
>
> ....snip...
>
>
>
> Does eventType implements this classifier concept?  That seems like a 
> potentially useful interpretation. In that case, something like the 
> OneGeologyEurope OrogenicEvent vocabulary is a gsml:EventType 
> vocabulary, and we get into the 'ontologic level' discussion about 
> names, classifiers, types etc. (see the Dec Twiki summary to review 
> that...). These categories are specific geologic events - they involve 
> geologic process, geologic environment, geologic age, and geographic 
> location.  This looks like a slippery slope. Does one look for the 
> depositional age by specifying the eventProcess or eventType?. Does 
> one look for structures related to the Laramide orogeny by specifying 
> the GeologicEvent/gml.name, or specifying the EventType...
>
> steve
>
>
>
> snip...
>
>
>
> -- 
> Stephen M. Richard
> Section Chief, Geoinformatics
> Arizona Geological Survey
> 416 W. Congress St., #100
> Tucson, Arizona, 85701 USA
>
> Phone:
> Office: (520) 209-4127
> Reception: (520) 770-3500
> FAX: (520) 770-3505
>
> email: steve.richard at azgs.az.gov <mailto:steve.richard at azgs.az.gov>
>
> -- 
> This message (and any attachments) is for the recipient only. NERC
> is subject to the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and the contents
> of this email and any reply you make may be disclosed by NERC unless
> it is exempt from release under the Act. Any material supplied to
> NERC may be stored in an electronic records management system.
>
>
> -- 
> Stephen M. Richard
> Section Chief, Geoinformatics
> Arizona Geological Survey
> 416 W. Congress St., #100
> Tucson, Arizona, 85701 USA
>
> Phone:
> Office: (520) 209-4127
> Reception: (520) 770-3500
> FAX: (520) 770-3505
>
> email: steve.richard at azgs.az.gov <mailto:steve.richard at azgs.az.gov>
>
> -- 
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-- 
Stephen M. Richard
Section Chief, Geoinformatics
Arizona Geological Survey
416 W. Congress St., #100
Tucson, Arizona, 85701 USA

Phone:
Office: (520) 209-4127
Reception: (520) 770-3500
FAX: (520) 770-3505

email: steve.richard at azgs.az.gov

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